Talk:Dungeon Assault/Archive 2
Orbs of Mastery Should we add another coulumn to the table for price increase? I am kinda new to wiki, I'm not confident enough to do that. Also, shouldn't we state that after setting the timer for the reset, any additional orbs purchased also take effect at that time, and possibly that charging multiple orbs at once is a good idea?Gorzak 06:26, 18 August 2008 (UTC) ::shouldn't we state that after setting the timer for the reset, any additional orbs purchased also take effect at that time... :How do you know that? JalYt-Xil-Vimescarrot 08:24, 18 August 2008 (UTC) :: I suppose I dont know for sure, but after purchasing the second and third orb, the reset time for my dungeon did not change, nor was an additional timer added. It is possible that it will reset 3 times in succession, but from the UI it really looks like it will reset just once, and all 3 orbs will take effect.Gorzak 10:34, 18 August 2008 (UTC) ::: I payed closer attention this time purchasing my fourth orb. There is no warning screen saying your dungeon will be reset. That screen only appeared for the first orb purchase, then the UI shows the number of orbs charging, and the date & time the dungeon will be reset. Subsequent purchases incremented the number of orbs charging, but did not give a warning, nor change the reset time still showing. This is the evidence I have that when the reset goes through, ALL orbs purchased will take effect. It's not verifiable for a few more days, but this is how I came to this conclusion.Gorzak 23:21, 18 August 2008 (UTC) Is there a limit to the number of orbs you are able to obtain? Preservation should have an effictive limit of 20, but can we buy 20? 21? Can you buy 100?. If you are below your reset renown when you reset, do you get boosted up?--Gorzak 17:32, 22 August 2008 (UTC) :Is there any evidence of a fifth orb of Mastery, unlocked at renown of 12000? Or do we know that there isn't one? Timeroot 20:29, 6 September 2008 (UTC) ::As I have reached 34k, was briefly rank 1, and only have the four mentioned as an option, and others have also stated they only have 4 on the forums, despite reaching 12k, I think its a safe bet there are only 4 at this time.--Gorzak 18:34, 7 September 2008 (UTC) Orb of Mastery Limit The "Limit" column of the Orbs of Mastery table has never had anything put into it. Is there even a limit? Oh, by the way what colour is the Orbs of Brilliance and War? (Preservation = Grey, Majesty = Cyan) 19118219 Talk 11:31, 25 August 2008 (UTC) :It is expected that there is a limit of 20 orbs of preservation, but I don't think that has been confirmed yet. Quartic ~ insanity is a virtue | Talk 11:36, 25 August 2008 (UTC) ::In fact, I was the one who came up with the theory of 20 orbs of preservation. It definately can't go over 20, because you can't keep 105% of your stuff, but it may have a lower limit, such as keeping around 85% max. So for now it's just a comment in the page's code. --[[User:Bigd56|'Bigd56']] | Talk 16:08, 25 August 2008 (UTC) :::It definitely can go over 20 orbs. Let's suppose that you lose all your treasure without any orbs. Let's denote all with letter x. Now, when you buy the first orb, you'd only lose 0.95x treasure. After the next one you'd lose (0.95)^2*x treasure, and so on. After the n'th orb you'd lose (0.95)^n*x treasure, which means that you'd need about 45 orbs to keep 90% of your treasure. This never goes to negative but the more you buy, less you lose. I think that this is the correct way to think of it, instead that "2 orbs will save you 10%, 3 15% etc". --Thingummywut 0:18, 1 September 2008 (GMT) ::::Ah, I get it now. To make it simpler for those who don't understand math-ish stuff much: say you have 10 treasure. With 1 orb, you'd lose 5% less, meaning you'd lose 9.5 treasure instead of 10 (all) . With another orb, you lose 5% of 9.5, not 5% of 10. So you'd lose 0.475 less treasure plus the 0.5 from the first orb. So 1 orb = 0.5 kept, but 2 orbs = 0.975 kept, NOT 1 kept. Hope it's easy(or at least easier) to understand. 19118219 Talk 01:49, 1 September 2008 (UTC) :::::I might have to take my theory back. I'm pretty sure I just gained treasure from a reset. Maybe 2 orbs will after all save you 10 %? We need more tests about this. I'll have to wait a week for my next one. Thingummywut 19:51, 13 September 2008 (UTC) :::I suspect there if there is a limit, it would be difficult to reach. I am capable of purchasing the 21st orb of preservation. A limit to its effectiveness is not the same as a limit preventing its purchase. If there are titles for charging 20+ orbs, preservation orbs would be the cheapest option for quite some time. Since I asked a question abou this already in the existing orb section, I moved the thread there. --Gorzak 20:07, 25 August 2008 (UTC) :I uploaded images for you 19118219 --Gorzak 20:33, 25 August 2008 (UTC) ::Thanks, but I was just asking for the colour (you could just say green and red). However, I guess there is no point in deleting the images now. 19118219 Talk 07:21, 28 August 2008 (UTC) There is a seperate limit for members and non members. How would you suggest we format this?--Gorzak 07:40, 2 September 2008 (UTC) :Interesting...how about: (example) Italic Limit = Members Only By the way, what is the limit you are talking about? 19118219 Talk 13:20, 2 September 2008 (UTC) :I'm not sure if members have limits. I'm a f2p and on members' benefits it states "Unlimited Orbs of Mastery". That could mean that the limits are for f2p only, no? Thingummywut 11:30, 6 September 2008 (GMT) ::Hmm, true. I think I'll go edit the table accordingly. 19118219 Talk 08:53, 6 September 2008 (UTC) I just realised...the effective limit of Orb of War is 100, since by then EVERY raider including Chaos Champion would be FREE. There would be no point buying more than that. Imagine how much that would cost though... 19118219 Talk 13:13, 11 September 2008 (UTC) Every time you get your dungeon reset, you get an amount of treasure equal to you renown. Doesn't thus mean that, in theory, you could make money off of Orbs of Majesty? First, buy ~60 Orbs of Preservation (you'll only lose 5% each time), and 1 OoM. When the dungeon resets, you will get 350 treasure. Then, buy another OoM. The dungeon will reset, and you will get 450 treasure. Buy another, wait for it to reset, and you will get 550 treasure. Go so on and so on, and pretty soon you will be very, very wealthy. What think? Timeroot 20:50, 13 September 2008 (UTC) Members Only? I don't think that people can play Dungeon Assault at all without having an active FunOrb membership... should we remove the members only information, as I don't believe it is correct. --[[User:Bigd56|'Bigd56']] | Talk 16:41, 25 August 2008 (UTC) :Actually i have all achievements on my f2p, so yes, it is playable without membership. People who marked high-renown monsters/traps as members-only are free players too. We members wouldn't even see what advantages we have without free players :-/ --BeyPokéDig 17:37, 25 August 2008 (UTC) ::I am f2p and marked the majority of the members only stuff. If you require further evidence I can provide screenshots. --Gorzak 20:01, 25 August 2008 (UTC) :::No, since you say you can provide screenshots, I will assume that the information you are providing is correct. --[[User:Bigd56|'Bigd56']] | Talk 22:55, 25 August 2008 (UTC) http://nl.youtube.com/watch?v=xblbe8VZLv0 < i made a video of whats member and whats not (charge orb=f2p)currently ranked 9--shikadi :Thanks for confirming which raiders/rooms are members only. Quartic ~ insanity is a virtue | Talk 16:24, 5 September 2008 (UTC) Probabilities section I have just added some information on the Dungeon Assault combat system based on my thread: Dungeon Assault - Mathematics. However, I am not sure whether to include more or less detail, particularly as the mathematics may get rather in depth for our target audience. Some advice, and help with any necessary adjustments would be appreciated. Quartic ~ insanity is a virtue | Talk 00:54, 5 September 2008 (UTC) :These equations should be converted to MathML or SVG format... --[[User:Bigd56|'Bigd56']] | Talk 02:15, 5 September 2008 (UTC) ::I've never heard of either of those before, so do you think you could explain what they are, and why they're better than what I've used? Quartic ~ insanity is a virtue | Talk 02:42, 5 September 2008 (UTC) :::MathML is a mathematical markup language that is considered standard across the web. You can see the difference between images rendered with text (what's used now) and mathml at this site. SVG stands for scalable vector graphics, and it would probably be even better than mathml for use on this wiki, as SVG files can be scabled to any size and not lose their quality since they are mathematically calculated vector images instead of raster files such as PNG. --[[User:Bigd56|'Bigd56']] | Talk 03:25, 5 September 2008 (UTC) ::::Also, other than images with no animation/movement, SVG can do some pretty cool stuff (which will almost definately not be used on wikia however). See this SVG demo. --[[User:Bigd56|'Bigd56']] | Talk 03:29, 5 September 2008 (UTC) ::.Svg is the standard of Wikipedia:Vector Graphics, meaning it stores the data of the image in a different way. It's mostly used for cartoons/flowcharts, things made up of lines. For creating/editing the pictures, I would recommend Wikipedia:Inkscape. However, BigD56 is wrong, an svg would take up much more file space, and look just as good (if not worse). You see, BigD, Quartic used a piece of software built into the wiki that generates very nice mathematical formulas. Since he is using images already "embedded" in the wiki, he is using less space. Timeroot 03:32, 5 September 2008 (UTC) :::All of this is pretty much going over my head, and not really what I created this section to discuss anyway. I actually created it for help with the content, rather than the formatting of the content. Quartic ~ insanity is a virtue | Talk 04:14, 5 September 2008 (UTC) Thieves: What do they do? And... unexplained discrepancies. I have been thuroughly confused as to how exactly thieves function, and the Dungeon Assault page has also had conflicting/confusing information. This is what I know: #With a thief, the base chance of waking the dragon is 8%. #With a thief, and the slider all the way to the right, it reads 90%. #If you have more then one thief, the effects will stack. This is what other people have said: *Each thief lowers the chance by two percent (which conflicts with #2 above) *With four thieves, and the slider all the way to the right, the chance is 74% (which seems quite random... 0.9 ^ 4 is 66%) These are my questions: *''How exactly do thieves affect the chances of waking the dragon?'' *How do these effects stack? Arithmetically? Geometrically? *In which order are the effect applied? For example: First renown penalty, then thief bonus... or vice versa? I think, if we can't find a suitable solution, then we should replace the section just listing our observations, but not making any unproven generalities. Timeroot 00:47, 6 September 2008 (UTC) :I see that someone updated the information I put up to try to make it less confusing, and in the process added inaccuracies. One thief reduces the base chance of waking the dragon by 2, and the maximum chance by 10, or as I originally wrote it, reduces the difference between base and maximum by 8. Two thieves, not four, reduce the range to 74. That is to say with two thieves, and no penalty, the base is 6% and the max is 80%, 74 percent higher. These are all different ways of saying the same thing. *''How exactly do thieves affect the chances of waking the dragon?'' The thief reduces the chance the dragon will awaken by 2% at the minimum, 10% at the maximum. *How do these effects stack? Arithmetically? Geometrically? Additively. The flat numbers 2 base, 8 range, 10 max are subtracted from the preexisting numbers. *In which order are the effect applied? For example: First renown penalty, then thief bonus... or vice versa? Order of operations are irrelevant as all penalties/bonuses are additive. Is it important to know whether you +3 then -2, or -2 then +3 when the result is the same either way? To a question you may have asked and I misunderstood - *How are these bonuses distributed? Linearly. At 1/4 of the slider you get base 2 and 1/4 * 8 range. At 1/2 of the slider you get base 2 and 1/2 * 8 range. At 3/4 of the slider you get base 2 and 3/4 * 8 range. I hope that helps. Now to fix the inaccuracies.--Gorzak 18:15, 7 September 2008 (UTC) ::Another question I can answer *What if the thief has died? No effect, you still recieve the bonuses as if he is in your party. --Gorzak 19:10, 7 September 2008 (UTC) Thief and hall of glass the thief and the hall of glass are unlocked after 2300. im at 2301 right now, and I can't purchase them just letting u know. I think they MIGHT be at 2350. --01:13, 6 September 2008 (UTC) :not at 2325 either. --[[User:Bigd56|'Bigd56']] | Talk 01:15, 6 September 2008 (UTC) ::Hmm... I'm at 2350 and still not available. The table's off by a mile... EDIT: Thief is available at 2350! Not hall of glass. --[[User:Bigd56|'Bigd56']] | Talk 01:21, 6 September 2008 (UTC) :::Still not available at 2385. I'm starting to wonder why I can't purchase these yet. --[[User:Bigd56|'Bigd56']] | Talk 01:18, 6 September 2008 (UTC) ::::You've gotta be kidding me. Still can't get hall of glass at 2400. :::::Something that we may want to change is the order in which the raiders and rooms are listed. They are listed the same way they are in the game on default sort, which is by ascending by cost. For the most part this follows the renown unlock order, there are some pretty glaring differences where the next unlocked raider/room is equal to or cheaper than the previous raider/room. I propose we change it to unlocking renown sorted, once we feel we have a good handle on the unlocking renowns.--Gorzak 19:53, 7 September 2008 (UTC) ::::::I agree, ordered by renown would look better. Quartic ~ insanity is a virtue | Talk 20:22, 7 September 2008 (UTC) ::::::::Couldn't you just use a sortable wikitable? 20:41, 7 September 2008 (UTC) Saurus Slink Pit Immunity Is the Saurus Slink immune to all Pits (Pit, Hidden Pit, Bottomless Pit) or just the regular Pit? I've never had a chance to put mine against any one but the basic: some people's dungeons are just so lousy lol... 19118219 Talk 16:46, 6 September 2008 (UTC) :Well, the tooltip for Slinks says "Pit Immunity - Succeeds against all pit traps". I'm assuming that means it works against hidden/bottomless pits. But, then again, I can't be sure.... Timeroot 17:06, 6 September 2008 (UTC) ::I have used it for hidden pits, but not bottemless. It has never failed me for hidden pits, in fact it always wins the sneak roll, which is statistically unlikely. I cannot confirm bottomless, but I speculate that it will be true there as well.--Gorzak 19:07, 7 September 2008 (UTC) Orbs of Brilliance Limit I would like to inform you all that the limit of Orbs of Brilliance is not 5. I am currently charging 7 Orbs of brilliance and I have the option to buy an 8th. Sorry to disappoint you, --[[User:Bigd56|'Bigd56']] | Talk 20:05, 6 September 2008 (UTC) :I will add a screenshot if you require proof. --[[User:Bigd56|'Bigd56']] | Talk 20:05, 6 September 2008 (UTC) ::Are you currently a member? Quartic ~ insanity is a virtue | Talk 21:12, 6 September 2008 (UTC) :::Yes. am a member on both FunOrb and RuneScape. Why? --[[User:Bigd56|'Bigd56']] | Talk 21:36, 6 September 2008 (UTC) ::::I know a friend with lots of renown whos name I will not mention because he says he doesn't want to be raided, however he sent me a cropped screenshot that showed him charging 11 orbs of brilliance. It doesn't appear to be modified. I'll upload that. --[[User:Bigd56|'Bigd56']] | Talk 21:44, 6 September 2008 (UTC) ::::: --[[User:Bigd56|'Bigd56']] | Talk 21:46, 6 September 2008 (UTC) ::::::I asked because the article currently states that a limit only exists for non-members. Quartic ~ insanity is a virtue | Talk 21:59, 6 September 2008 (UTC) --Gorzak 18:30, 7 September 2008 (UTC) Bounties ? Does anyone knows the recently added bounty features? (Ad Fundum 21:01, 6 September 2008 (UTC)) :If no-one reaches your hoard room in 8 hours, you get a bounty. If no-one reaches your hoard room for 16 hours, you get 2 bounties. This will keep stacking until someone raids you and reaches your hoard room, even if that person woke the dragon. That person will receive all your bounty, leaving you with none. However, this does not affect the Renown of the person being raided, so don't worry about losing anything extra if an opponent gets your bounty. Hope this helps. =) 19118219 Talk 02:55, 7 September 2008 (UTC) And what do these bounty's include? (Ad Fundum 08:05, 7 September 2008 (UTC)) :Bounties are an amount of treasure. Quartic ~ insanity is a virtue | Talk 09:13, 7 September 2008 (UTC) ::So ... you never personally own your bounties? They're just there for other players to steal? 10:11, 7 September 2008 (UTC) :::Um, yeah. You don't gain or lose anything at all when a bounty appears or disappears. 19118219 Talk 15:14, 7 September 2008 (UTC) Circumvent What happens if you attempt to circumvent a hoard room? I don't want to buy a dwarf, so I don't know.... can anyone with a renegade midget - I mean dwarf - tell me? Timeroot 03:24, 7 September 2008 (UTC) :You are not given the oppritunity to use the dwarf renegade's circumvent ability. The hoard room is special, you also cannot use the spies ability on it.--Gorzak 19:58, 7 September 2008 (UTC) Traps + Raiders Do we have them all? 10:17, 7 September 2008 (UTC) :Yes, I believe we have all traps, raiders and Orbs of Mastery. 19118219 Talk 15:17, 7 September 2008 (UTC) Are we sure there isn't an Orb of Mastery at 12000 renown? Timeroot 15:34, 7 September 2008 (UTC) :Everything up to 34k renown is listed, and nothing is unlocked from 7k-34k--Gorzak 18:21, 7 September 2008 (UTC) Titles 26 orbs charging at once and no title unlocked, good call on removing those titles quartic--Gorzak 04:17, 8 September 2008 (UTC) :no new title is viewable upon having 50 orbs charged. Usually the next title is viewable when a new one is achieved, I suspect this is the last title in this line.--Gorzak 09:23, 8 September 2008 (UTC) Keep dungeon rooms after renown reset? Does anyone know if I will still be able to buy Demon lords and chaos champions after my renown is reset? --[[User:Bigd56|'Bigd56']] | Talk 20:10, 8 September 2008 (UTC) :Yes, as soon as you buy a new orb. Quartic ~ insanity is a virtue | Talk 20:14, 8 September 2008 (UTC) ::So once you've got too many orbs, you can never again buy these high level monsters and rooms, because you'll never be able to get enough goold to start charging? Also, what's the pointof doing anything if you're going to lose it all in a week...I don't get it. JalYt-Xil-Vimescarrot 21:10, 8 September 2008 (UTC) :::What's the point in playing any game? Quartic ~ insanity is a virtue | Talk 21:17, 8 September 2008 (UTC) ::::Get to the end/get a highscore/win. None of those three seem to be an option in this game. JalYt-Xil-Vimescarrot 21:30, 8 September 2008 (UTC) :::::And there was I thinking the point was to have fun/enjoy oneself. Quartic ~ insanity is a virtue | Talk 23:04, 8 September 2008 (UTC) :::Vimescarrot, it really seems like the cost of the reset has outweighed the benefits the orbs offer. Let me explain why it's worth it to me, you may realize its not as bad as you think. Lets evaluate the first two orbs. As they simply mitigate the reset penalty, I think its safe to say there is no way they can on thier own be worth incurring the penalty. Brilliance increases your renown per hour, and there is some discussion as to whether it provides treasure income as well. War reduces losses to raiding, making existing targets juicier and expanding you're targeting to previously too costly targets. I'd go for war even if that meant losing everything with no other benefits. With 20 of those Orbs of War, raiding would be cheap cheap cheap. Having charging orb as a requirement for the top rooms and raiders is a plus for me. I acually like the design feature that you cannot achieve first place without conceding it within a week, it keeps things less stagnant. Lets completely disregard that though and just look at the pro's and cons of the worst reset you can get, apart from the orbs.Your treasure is set to 250. As the cheapest orb is 250, everytime after the first, it will be a loss of treasure, increasingg over time. All investment in dungeon and stables are zeroed out. Again, loss, depending on investment. Are there any upsides? Your dungeon layout is changed. I garantee people have your dungeon mapped once you break 5k renown. No matter how you change your rooms, people know your 5 room paths. It only takes a couple raids to figure out the new ones, but thats a couple raids where you are handed a free win. What else is good about a reset? Renown is dropped to 250. Thats bad right? It isn't. You earn money as you gain renown, and high renown caps your income two ways. For one, you have less targets, and secondly you start losing more raids, and if not raids, more costly raiders. Losing the raids or defense actions lowers your treasure conversion rate further reducing potential raiding income. Resets also reset the treasure conversion to the maximum. Also, if you are smart about it, knowing you are gonna take the renown hit gives you ample oppritunity to map out target dungeons. I bought four spies 3 hours before my reset one time and mapped out the top 20. I went from 3rd place to 50k place back up to 2nd place all within about 4 hours, and I made over 10k gold on the way back up. That was far more than I lost in my stable and dungeon. I could not make that kind of treasure without a reset, as my conversion rate gets battered down to around 35% of its max within about 6 hours of breaking the top 20. Its a no brainer for me even without the charge orb unlocks, and even the benefits of the orbs. I'd have been taking a reset every time i reached as high as i could get, if I could. Keeping the orbs makes earning the money worth it. Bounties kind of changes that, but you still need the daemonette to unlock treasure income of that sort. Whats got me down is being limited to preservation only. not much point for me to go on I think.--Gorzak 00:26, 9 September 2008 (UTC) ::::Wow that was a long post! It did make sense though, to me at least. Quartic ~ insanity is a virtue | Talk 01:07, 9 September 2008 (UTC) :::::I don't get more than 20 or so treasure per raid, though. o.o JalYt-Xil-Vimescarrot 20:24, 9 September 2008 (UTC)